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 Black Level Measurements of Asian Displays, Measurement

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TSanfieldude
post Mar 27 2011, 07:14 PM, updated 12y ago

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This thread is to document the black level measurements of the various displays that I have measured black levels in Malaysia/Singapore or anywhere in Asia

My equipment:

For the purposes of black level measurements I will use the following

1. X-Rite Chroma 5E
Specs : 0.02cd/m2 - 1000cd/m2
(0.006ft/L - 291ft/L)

2. Klein K-10
Measurement Range:
0.00006-2919 fL; 0.0002-10,000 cd/m2

cd/m2 - Candela/meter2
ft/L - foot Lamberts

I also own a EyeOne Pro Spectrophotometer that is used for calibration but not suitable for black level measurements.

The lower the number indicates lower black levels (better). These measurements are for a full/window black 0% IRE signal. As I get ANSI contrast measurements, I will add to this thread.

Plasma

Pioneer 428XG (2000hrs) - 0.009ft/L
Pioneer 428XG (2200hrs) - 0.011ft/L (ANSI Method)
Pioneer 508XG (~3000hrs) - 0.008ft/L
KRP600M (1200hrs) - 0.0013ft/L
KRP600M (1500hrs) - 0.0025ft/L (ANSI Method)

Panasonic 50VT20 (200+hrs) - 0.005ft/L
Panasonic 50V20 (1500hrs) - 0.009ft/L
Panasonic 50U20 (1200hrs) - 0.024ft/L
Panasonic 42X10 (2000hrs) - 0.08ft/L
Panasonic 42U30 (500hrs) - 0.032ft/L

Panasonic 65VT50 - 0.0025ft/L (THX Modes)
- 0.0033ft/L (ANSI - THX Mode)
- 0.006ft/L (Pro Modes)
- 0.006ft/L (ANSI - ProMode)
Panasonic 65ST50 - 0.0028ft/L (TrueCinema Mode)
- 0.0033ft/L (ANSI)

Samsung 50C650 ~500hrs - 0.06ft/L (0.12ft/L with Cinema Smooth on)

Edit: Added xx50 measurements

This post has been edited by anfieldude: Sep 3 2012, 09:41 AM
TSanfieldude
post Mar 27 2011, 07:15 PM

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mpyw
post Mar 27 2011, 09:26 PM

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Wow, the panny floating black really that bad ar?
TSanfieldude
post Mar 27 2011, 09:39 PM

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QUOTE(mpyw @ Mar 27 2011, 09:26 PM)
Wow, the panny floating black really that bad ar?
*
Rising Black....

The 2010 models did rise a bit after 1000hrs. And 1 more rise at about 2000hrs or so.
ariff_tech
post Mar 28 2011, 01:06 AM

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QUOTE(anfieldude @ Mar 27 2011, 09:39 PM)
Rising Black....

The 2010 models did rise a bit after 1000hrs. And 1 more rise at about 2000hrs or so.
*
Which one better. plasma or LCD.
what about brightness, how bright TV can go after 1000hrs.
can u please put some picture how 0.01candle-light look like?

This post has been edited by ariff_tech: Mar 28 2011, 01:07 AM
TSanfieldude
post Mar 28 2011, 08:48 AM

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QUOTE(ariff_tech @ Mar 28 2011, 01:06 AM)
Which one better. plasma or LCD.
what about brightness, how bright TV can go after 1000hrs.
can u please put some picture how 0.01candle-light look like?
*
This thread will not answer which is better (LCD or plasma) as this is only one part of the puzzle.

Brightness? I am assuming you mean contrast (how bright does a white screen go)?

I have seen plasmas go as high as 50ft/L for a window of 100% white while still maintaining good integrity of white. If its a full screen of 100% white, then the 9G Kuros could go to about 18ft/L. I am told that this years Panasonics can go up to 24ft/L (which is bright in my opinion).

LCDs are different as they do not have the ABL (Automatic Brightness Limiter) or APL (Automatic Peak Limiter) that the plasmas have. The highest contrast I could get a LCD to go while maintining integrity of white was about 40ft/L (I believe the new LGs, Samsung and Sony could go higher ~55ft/L but I have not measured them as yet). The difference is that LCDs that show 40ft/L on windows will show 40ft/L on full screen as well, so LCDs do go brighter (full white) in real life. While it is not necessary to go that high for dim/dark environment and will be uncomfortable to the eye those circumstances, it is good for bright environments....

Posting a picture will not really help, as the monitor that different people use to view it are not calibrated so it will be different.

In real life, 30ft/L of windowed white is plenty bright in a dim environment and 45ft/L windowed white is bright enuf for day environment if ur screen is matte or has a good anti reflective coating.

This post has been edited by anfieldude: Mar 28 2011, 08:48 AM
gdee
post Mar 28 2011, 10:36 AM

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Great thread! This will be very helpful for those potential TV buyers and to those concern with rising blacks on their pre 2011 Panny sets.
It also gives a good perception on how actual black level readings look like. Thanks AD!
Hope it becomes sticky.
specuvestor
post Mar 28 2011, 10:54 AM

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@anfieldude

So you finally got your K-10... enjoy smile.gif

What's your guesstimate of V20 final stable black level? You think Panny finally resolved the rising black in 2011 panels? Alot of speculation now...
TSanfieldude
post Mar 28 2011, 11:03 AM

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QUOTE(specuvestor @ Mar 28 2011, 10:54 AM)
@anfieldude

So you finally got your K-10... enjoy smile.gif

What's your guesstimate of V20 final stable black level? You think Panny finally resolved the rising black in 2011 panels? Alot of speculation now...
*
Yeah, got my K-10 about 1 month ago. Fantastic piece of equipment. Very stable readings all around. Profiled with the EyeOne Pro it becomes quite a tool for calibration.

I can finally measure black levels on the 9G Kuros and its that low.

I believe the V20 shd be in the range of 0.01 - 0.02 ft/L, will add info as I get them.
sunnyK
post Mar 28 2011, 12:23 PM

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Panasonic 50V20 (1500hrs) - 0.009ft/L
Panasonic 50U20 (300hrs) -0.009ft/L
Panasonic 50U20 (1200hrs) - 0.024ft/L
Panasonic 42X10 (2000hrs) - 0.08ft/L

Samsung C650 ~500hrs - 0.02ft/L (0.067ft/L with Cinema Smooth on)

the panny V20 at 1500hrs-.009ft/L is still pretty impressive but the U20 at 1200hrs - .024ft/L is worrying although the sammy with Cinema Smooth engaged is worst which i have read at Avforum before. rather unfortunately ,at least the 51''D8000 still have issues with little improvement whenever cinema smooth is engaged. it is still a toss of coin whether Panny have solved the issue of floating and rising black for 2011 models although panny have apparently attempted to address it

but for most average Joe any measurement from .015 to .025ft/L is still acceptable and is actually not that bad at all. only the videophiles and enthusiasts may think otherwise.

thanks to AD for starting this thread to keep us here informed and educated as well

This post has been edited by sunnyK: Mar 28 2011, 12:25 PM
TSanfieldude
post Mar 28 2011, 01:44 PM

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QUOTE(sunnyK @ Mar 28 2011, 12:23 PM)
Panasonic 50V20 (1500hrs) - 0.009ft/L
Panasonic 50U20 (300hrs) -0.009ft/L
Panasonic 50U20 (1200hrs) - 0.024ft/L
Panasonic 42X10 (2000hrs) - 0.08ft/L

Samsung C650 ~500hrs - 0.02ft/L (0.067ft/L with Cinema Smooth on)

the panny V20 at 1500hrs-.009ft/L is still pretty impressive but the U20 at 1200hrs - .024ft/L is worrying although the sammy with Cinema Smooth engaged is worst which i have read at Avforum before. rather unfortunately ,at least the 51''D8000 still have issues with little improvement whenever cinema smooth is engaged. it is still a toss of coin  whether Panny have solved the issue of floating and rising black for 2011 models although panny have apparently attempted to address it

but for most average Joe any measurement from .015 to .025ft/L is still acceptable and is actually not that bad at all. only the videophiles and enthusiasts may think otherwise.

thanks to AD for starting this thread to keep us here informed and educated as well
*
I corrected my information on the older C650. Keep in mind that this is an older model. The 2010 models were better.

I hope to add more Samsung measurements when I get the chance. I will also add LCD measurements when I get them.
ariff_tech
post Mar 28 2011, 11:53 PM

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QUOTE(anfieldude @ Mar 28 2011, 08:48 AM)
This thread will not answer which is better (LCD or plasma) as this is only one part of the puzzle.

Brightness? I am assuming you mean contrast (how bright does a white screen go)?

I have seen plasmas go as high as 50ft/L for a window of 100% white while still maintaining good integrity of white. If its a full screen of 100% white, then the 9G Kuros could go to about 18ft/L. I am told that this years Panasonics can go up to 24ft/L (which is bright in my opinion).

LCDs are different as they do not have the ABL (Automatic Brightness Limiter) or APL (Automatic Peak Limiter) that the plasmas have. The highest contrast I could get a LCD to go while maintining integrity of white was about 40ft/L (I believe the new LGs, Samsung and Sony could go higher ~55ft/L but I have not measured them as yet).  The difference is that LCDs that show 40ft/L on windows will show 40ft/L on full screen as well, so LCDs do go brighter (full white) in real life. While it is not necessary to go that high for dim/dark environment and will be uncomfortable to the eye those circumstances, it is good for bright environments....

Posting a picture will not really help, as the monitor that different people use to view it are not calibrated so it will be different.

In real life, 30ft/L of windowed white is plenty bright in a dim environment and 45ft/L windowed white is bright enuf for day environment if ur screen is matte or has a good anti reflective coating.
*
oh i see rclxub.gif
TSanfieldude
post Apr 22 2011, 04:54 PM

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I added info on the 50VT20 that I calibrated recently.
SUSOptiplex330
post Apr 22 2011, 05:10 PM

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QUOTE(anfieldude @ Mar 27 2011, 07:14 PM)

Panasonic 50U20 (1200hrs) - 0.024ft/L

Samsung 50C650 ~500hrs - 0.06ft/L (0.12ft/L with Cinema Smooth on)

Edit: Corrected typo on older C650 Plasma
*
Does that mean the 50U20 with raising black is still better than the Samsung that has no raising black?

TSanfieldude
post Apr 22 2011, 05:54 PM

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QUOTE(Optiplex330 @ Apr 22 2011, 05:10 PM)
Does that mean the 50U20 with raising black is still better than the Samsung that has no raising black?
*
Yes but this was comparing the 2010 Panny with the 2009 Samsung.
SUSOptiplex330
post Apr 22 2011, 06:00 PM

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QUOTE(anfieldude @ Apr 22 2011, 05:54 PM)
Yes but this was comparing the 2010 Panny with the 2009 Samsung.
*
Human being are pretty funny animal. They all get so concerned about Panasonic raising black and I am sure some will not buy Panasonic because of this issue. And here you are saying even with the raising black issue, it's still better then the "no complaint about raising black" Samsung. LOL


redfly
post Apr 22 2011, 06:34 PM

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hi anfieldude,

Many thanks for this and your many excellent postings. Good to see healthy knowledgeable discussion that helped general mortals like us ;-)

Now, am tossing between the VT20 or the upcoming ST30... hoping to see the ST30 opinion/findings soon...
paskal
post Apr 22 2011, 10:18 PM

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QUOTE(Optiplex330 @ Apr 22 2011, 06:00 PM)
Human being are pretty funny animal. They all get so concerned about Panasonic raising black and I am sure some will not buy Panasonic because of this issue. And here you are saying even with the raising black issue, it's still better then the "no complaint about raising black" Samsung. LOL
*
he already said that it's comparing between 2010 pana and 2009 samsung.
do read around about the 2010 samsungs before making your assumption.

because quite frankly, a lot of your posts before this sounded like a plasma and pana fanboy. just because you bought a medium range pana don't make every other tech/maker/model inferior to your pana.
SUSOptiplex330
post Apr 22 2011, 10:32 PM

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QUOTE(paskal @ Apr 22 2011, 10:18 PM)
he already said that it's comparing between 2010 pana and 2009 samsung.
do read around about the 2010 samsungs before making your assumption.

because quite frankly, a lot of your posts before this sounded like a plasma and pana fanboy. just because you bought a medium range pana don't make every other tech/maker/model inferior to your pana.
*
That's funny. Now you sounded like a Sammy fanboy. LOL

classicrock
post Apr 24 2011, 05:56 PM

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Hi Anfieldude, what is the black level measurement for Pioneer KRP-500 A? Is it comparable to KRP-600M?
TSanfieldude
post Apr 24 2011, 07:18 PM

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QUOTE(classicrock @ Apr 24 2011, 05:56 PM)
Hi Anfieldude, what is the black level measurement for Pioneer KRP-500 A? Is it comparable to KRP-600M?
*
When I calibrated the last few sets, I did not own the Klein K-10. The next chance I get, I will get the measurement and publish it.
paskal
post Apr 24 2011, 10:27 PM

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QUOTE(Optiplex330 @ Apr 22 2011, 10:32 PM)
That's funny. Now you sounded like a Sammy fanboy. LOL
*
the 2010 samsung plasma are just not that bad. you made them sound like they're not even worth checking out. all i've said (even when you're choosing your set) is to check them out. do a side by side comparison. that's all i did. i reckon even you did check them out. noticed any significant difference in black level performance?

anyway,
at the end of last year, got a lot of buzz that leds with local dimming could possibly take the throne from plasmas. 2011 saw a lot of led models released with local dimming capability and yet nobody bothers to talk about them. IINM even medium range LG have local dimming this year.
either they're still bad or they're not yet widely available on the shelves.
SUSOptiplex330
post Apr 25 2011, 07:14 AM

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QUOTE(paskal @ Apr 24 2011, 10:27 PM)
the 2010 samsung plasma are just not that bad. you made them sound like they're not even worth checking out. all i've said (even when you're choosing your set) is to check them out. do a side by side comparison. that's all i did. i reckon even you did check them out. noticed any significant difference in black level performance?

anyway,
at the end of last year, got a lot of buzz that leds with local dimming could possibly take the throne from plasmas. 2011 saw a lot of led models released with local dimming capability and yet nobody bothers to talk about them. IINM even medium range LG have local dimming this year.
either they're still bad or they're not yet widely available on the shelves.
*
When I do my selection of Plasma, I heard of this black issue but don't really know what they are so it wasn't in my consideration.

I picked Panasonic primarily because I find it's color more natural than Samsung. May be it's just rumor but my friend told me Panasonic are more reliable.


paskal
post Apr 25 2011, 07:27 AM

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QUOTE(Optiplex330 @ Apr 25 2011, 07:14 AM)
When I do my selection of Plasma, I heard of this black issue but don't really know what they are so it wasn't in my consideration.

I picked Panasonic primarily because I find it's color more natural than Samsung. May be it's just rumor but my friend told me Panasonic are more reliable.
*
well i'm aware of the issue and know what to look for. even then i couldn't detect any significant difference between them. even tried to look for the floating black and couldn't find any scene that had the issue. maybe you can't do a proper comparison in a showroom, or my eyes are really just not sensitive enough to tell between $hit and gold tongue.gif
SUSOptiplex330
post Apr 25 2011, 08:15 AM

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QUOTE(paskal @ Apr 25 2011, 07:27 AM)
well i'm aware of the issue and know what to look for. even then i couldn't detect any significant difference between them. even tried to look for the floating black and couldn't find any scene that had the issue. maybe you can't do a proper comparison in a showroom, or my eyes are really just not sensitive enough to tell between $hit and gold tongue.gif
*
For me, "Ignorance is bliss". What I don't know doesn't hurt me. blush.gif
Drian
post Apr 25 2011, 01:46 PM

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QUOTE(anfieldude @ Mar 27 2011, 07:14 PM)
This thread is to document the black level measurements of the various displays that I have measured black levels in Malaysia/Singapore or anywhere in Asia

My equipment:

For the purposes of black level measurements I will use the following

1. X-Rite Chroma 5E
Specs : 0.02cd/m2 - 1000cd/m2
          (0.006ft/L - 291ft/L)

2. Klein K-10
Measurement Range:
0.00006-2919 fL; 0.0002-10,000 cd/m2

cd/m2 - Candela/meter2
ft/L - foot Lamberts

I also own a EyeOne Pro Spectrophotometer that is used for calibration but not suitable for black level measurements.

The lower the number indicates lower black levels (better). These measurements are for a full/window black 0% IRE signal. As I get ANSI contrast measurements, I will add to this thread.

Plasma

Pioneer 428XG (2000hrs)    - 0.009ft/L
Pioneer 508XG (~3000hrs)  - 0.008ft/L
KRP600M (1200hrs) - 0.001ft/L

Panasonic 50VT20 (200+hrs) - 0.005ft/L
Panasonic 50V20 (1500hrs) - 0.009ft/L
Panasonic 50U20 (300hrs) -0.009ft/L
Panasonic 50U20 (1200hrs) - 0.024ft/L
Panasonic 42X10 (2000hrs) - 0.08ft/L

Samsung 50C650 ~500hrs - 0.06ft/L (0.12ft/L with Cinema Smooth on)

Edit: Corrected typo on older C650 Plasma
*
Are you using checkered box black and white for your black and white level measurements? or whole screen white and whole screen black?

TSanfieldude
post Apr 25 2011, 09:17 PM

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QUOTE(Drian @ Apr 25 2011, 01:46 PM)
Are you using checkered box black and white for your black and white level measurements? or whole screen white and whole screen black?
*
These measurements are black window.

I have not done ANSI measurements (checkerboard) on the sets except my own Kuros (428XG and KRP-600M)
TSanfieldude
post May 9 2011, 03:18 PM

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QUOTE(anfieldude @ Apr 25 2011, 09:17 PM)
These measurements are black window.

I have not done ANSI measurements (checkerboard) on the sets except my own Kuros (428XG and KRP-600M)
*
I added ANSI measurements (checkerboard) on my 2 sets.
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post Jun 29 2011, 06:06 PM

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QUOTE(anfieldude @ May 9 2011, 03:18 PM)
I added ANSI measurements (checkerboard) on my 2 sets.
*
Anfield.. do you remember the initial measurement of the Black level on the V20? Was it the same as the VT20?
The reason i ask this is because there seems to be a lot of confusion in relation to the exact model that it relates to in the US/UK (i.e G or V)
TSanfieldude
post Jun 29 2011, 08:03 PM

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QUOTE(ajuc84 @ Jun 29 2011, 06:06 PM)
Anfield.. do you remember the initial measurement of the Black level on the V20? Was it the same as the VT20?
The reason i ask this is because there seems to be a lot of confusion in relation to the exact model that it relates to in the US/UK (i.e G or V)
*
The V20 started somewhere around 0.007-0.008ft/L. The VT20 are lower.

Our V series are similar to G series in the UK(Infinite Black vs Infinite Black Pro). Our VTs are the same as theirs.
assaopi
post Jul 26 2011, 03:24 PM

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Sorry, want to tumpang tanya. I wanted to get k-10 probe, may I know where did you guys bought it from?

Thanks in advance.

This post has been edited by assaopi: Jul 26 2011, 03:24 PM
TSanfieldude
post Jul 26 2011, 03:43 PM

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QUOTE(assaopi @ Jul 26 2011, 03:24 PM)
Sorry, want to tumpang tanya. I wanted to get  k-10 probe, may I know where did you guys bought it from?

Thanks in advance.
*
U can get it from spectracal or from klein instruments. It about usd7000. PM and I can connect u with the right people. Maybe u can let me know what u primarily want to use it for.
assaopi
post Jul 26 2011, 04:23 PM

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Plan to use it to calibrate broadcast monitors. Will pm you, Thank you!
TSanfieldude
post Sep 21 2011, 03:16 PM

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I added 2011 Panasonic data. Will add as I calibrate more soon. A step back for black levels as far as 2011 is concerned. Tallies with what has been observed in the states and in the UK. Also energy savings is also capping the overall peak contrast of the 2011 sets. As a comparison, I could get 36ft/L in the U20, I could not go above 27ft/L in the 2011 U30.
tim_1335
post Sep 21 2011, 05:12 PM

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QUOTE(anfieldude @ Sep 21 2011, 03:16 PM)
I added 2011 Panasonic data. Will add as I calibrate more soon. A step back for black levels as far as 2011 is concerned. Tallies with what has been observed in the states and in the UK. Also energy savings is also capping the overall peak contrast of the 2011 sets. As a comparison, I could get 36ft/L in the U20, I could not go above 27ft/L in the 2011 U30.
*
When you calibrated the U20 last year, I remember you mentioned the best contrast setting was 70. So this contrast is around 37ft/L?

If this is indeed the case, then the 2011 model must be quite dim.
TSanfieldude
post Sep 3 2012, 09:43 AM

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I added some data for 2012 Panasonic plasmas.

 

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