Audiophiles sifu here..
wanna ask:

1) which amp is better in term of sound quality?

- Tube amp
- Integrated amp
- Pre-amp

2) i see Tube amp many so expensive one , one bulb also cost RM150+. so Tube amp> Intergrated amp > Pre-amp?

3) Zero DAC is pre-amp? or DAC + opamp + pre-amp?

4) Zero Dac + Integrated amp can win Tube amp?

Sorry for mylong question, really hope to learn with Audiophiles sifus here
Please advice me.
Thanks in advance.

actually now only 1 in the DAC section and headamp section using 2107.

the other 2 627 is in my cute battery II amp. i not using the integrated headamp anymore and prefer my cute battery II amp. thats the final setup for now.




1/ and 2/ depends on ur taste... i HATE tube amps. makes me fall asleep listening to metal

3/ its a DAC with a built in headphone amplifier. u can also not use the built in amp and connect it to another amp like what im doing. u also need to learn wat opamp and preamp is. i dunno how to explain so google or wait for others to explain for u.

4/ to me yes....coz like i said... i HATE tube amps.

Please let me explain since I am tube lover. As Madman explain, u either love tube amp or hate it.

1. Tube amp and integrated are both different taste. Tube amp is warm and sweet sounding , suitable for vocal and lacks dynamics. Integrated amp depends on class (class A, class AB, T) can have diff characteristics as well.
Pre-amp is integrated split into two i.e. integrated amp = Preamp + power amp put in 1 casing.

2. Good tube is expensive. A 12AU7 telefunken with D-getter is expensive,a lot more than u mention. (Imitation one is cheap) It is not true
Tube amp> Intergrated amp > Pre-amp. It depends on implementation, technology, quality and vintage

3. DAC is not pre-amp, but DAC + headphone amp. The ZERO DAC happens to have level attenuator, and also can works as pre amp but its output is limited. You may want to google to know what is DAC and what type of DAC is commonly used.

4. DAC is DAC. Integrated amp and tube amp are diff type of amplifiers.

Hope that help.

rgds

Marantz CD63SE -> Zero -> NAD 320BEE -> Mission 773E spks.

Can you share your shoot out on the ZERO vs Marantz 63SE. Do you find the marantz more natural, transparent, or the ZERO more dynamic, wider soundstage:?

What is your taste of musics ?

Hope to see more ZERO users reporting their impressions.. or u guys just too busy running in the amp and rolling.

Err...Zero build in chips is OPA2604.

OPA2107 is higher-end compare to the stock.

OPA 627 is even higher-end than OPA2107, but 2 OPA 627 and an adaptor are need to replace 1 OPA2107 / OPA2604.

About the OPA 627 the most common opamp used in the DAC section, i don't think so. It's depends on the users preference and the OPA 627 cost a lot of $$$.

if Zero arrive end of next month, then U can start order now because is a bulk order. Need minimum 6 pcs to proceed. Once payment received, normally took 2 weeks+ to arrive.
I got ready stock for the browndog, not much, but only sell together with opamp.
Let me know if U still interested.

ya..U are right about it.



Hmm...maybe I should try ask my supplier got opa2107 or not?
How much is opa2107 cost?? If I can source them cheaper, maybe can bulk it also..

Ccshua, prior to ZERO arrived. my system was quite aged, almost 11 years now, my Cd63SE started producing crippling sound last year whenever I play higher pitch music from the analog out and was told by OCTIVE that was the ageing part problem. getting an external DAC is an option to me to re-route the output via digital. I like both opamp 2604 and opamp 627, 2604 give more tube and relax , fun feeling and it's good for Chinese vocal music and Vocal Jazz, however i found it little booming effect. where as 627 is very detail espcially when I played "You don't Bring Me Flower By Saleno Jones", wider soundstage and I like bass produced. Normally I don't spend much time on music at home and I'll definitely stay with the 627 for now.

Overall, I give 7.5/10 in rating for Zero + 627 and 7.0/10 for Zero + 2604.

Will let you know in a few days. GodLuv will order by Thursday. I just wanna make sure the units are ordered first. Thanks mike.

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Added on June 24, 2008, 1:39 pm
Interesting! I would assume the Zero to give you a minor "upgrade" to your 63SE since the Marantz is quite highly regarded. Ccshua wanted to know how different the Zero sounded compared to the 63SE's integrated DAC. Would you still have sound problem if you don't use "higher pitch" music?

I also have an aged system, 16yrs old Audiolab 8000A Amp + Bose AM5-II. Toshiba DVD is probably 7 yrs old. I missed out on an affordable used Meridian DAC so I hope the Zero will give my system a new boost in sound quality.

Zero will help a lot if pair like this:
1) Dvd player - Zero - Integrated amp
2) Pc - Zero - Int amp
3) Pc + sound card - Zero - Int amp.

Im newbie, but i wish to get zero and mod the opamp like u guys too.
Thanks.

I can't do the apple to apple comparison as my CD63SE don't give his best performance via analog out anymore. I'm not those "Magazine Award Review" believer and in fact, I got the CD63SE from my elder brother many years ago, who still think by paying extra $X dollar can get X% sound improvement. To me, Cd63Se just a good sounding and reliable CDP, yet it's much heavy than those normal DVDP.

As I mention earlier, if you want more warm and laid back music,
try LT 1358, LT 2604

If you want tube like warm sound,
try DY 2000 (I am using this now), LT 1057

If you want good separation, dynamics
try OPA 627, OPA 827, LM 4562

I am not sure how LME 49720 sounds like. To me, it is quite narrow soundstage.

I haven't got time to do a shoot out on DY2000 yet. will come back.

Guys, one set (i adapter + 2 OPA627) not enough for mod? need extra OPA627 to complete mod?
i only planning to get 1 unit actually.

1 set should be enough if U just put in on DAC section of Zero.

For amp section, I dun encourage U to use OPA627AP, there are other better opamp

u mean Head fi amp section?

OK, I get what you mean. Thanks. Actually, x dollar don't give you x amount of improvement. As it gets more expensive, the improvement is rather minor but the thing it, the little improvements are for those how can tell the difference... as in serious audiophiles. People who spent on systems that cost more than a link house! They are a different "animal" really.

The reason why the CD63SE weight so much is to ensure that the transport is more stable. More stable = less vibration = less error/jitter = less correction by the DAC = better sound. The very simple Ring that sticks to a CD to reduce vibration provided a cleaner n more focused sound, proving that vibration do degrade sound quality. That's why dedicated CD players still cost a few times more than DVD players. If I have spare cash lying around, I don't mind having a Meridian transport and DAC. Unfortunately, I didn't have a multi millionaire dad so have to play play with Zero DAC lor.

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Added on June 25, 2008, 7:38 am
What sort of music would you listen to for warm and laid back? I can only think of vocals so this will allow you to focus more on the voice than music?

So the DY 2000 "warm" up the entire dynamic range? I sure would like to try this on Jazz Vocals. Can't wait for your shootout. How much is the DY 2000 and where can I get 1? Thanks!

ccschua get the dy2000 from internet i also ask him to get one for me also but no time to meet him yet

for soo many day i tested on Zero with different opamp currently i try on opa2107 .... wut i found the sound slightly dry n digital (fake) will all op when running using toslink .... than yesterday just bought MIT coaxial ... but not fully run it yet still dunno wut the result yet i compare back last 2 week when i listen to CD-63 KI the vocal are thick more sweet sounding .... when the CD-63 connect to DAC is totally different seem the sound more dynamic n more resolution vocal is slightly thin ...

the different is CD-63 KI is running on 16bit and Zero is 24bit

actually depends on ur taste ... if u like those new age or fast music Zero is more suitable ...

Now just wait to running in n test on final result that day i try on Headphone the sound are dull dunno y maybe i use cheap headphone

Perhaps it may need some kind of burn in, lotsa headfier reporting improvement after 100 hours of burn in If the OPA2107 sounds like OPA627 as ppl reporting, ccschua mentioned OPA627 sounds kinda a lil too neutral and dynamic to him a vocal fanatic, as you two gathering alot, u may borrow his opamps play play

yeah i already give few opamp for him to try out .....
yeah me n ccschua almost same taste more to vocal .... we are vocal fanatic
now i trying opa2107 is less dynamic compare to opa627 .... still need some time to audit n burn in.

haha now waiting the dy2000 haiz need to run in all the opamp before have final result

currently i didnt connect to my tube preamp now just direct from DAC

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Added on June 25, 2008, 11:16 am

i got 1 extra opa2107 who wanna swap with me n try heheh

*** Alternative to OPA627 is OPA132/134 ***

Burr-Brown OPA627
Cost, single: $18.38 (OPA627AP) Vmin, 0.5V into 33 Ω: 6.8V
Cost, dual: n/a Vmin, 2.0V into 330 Ω: 9.8V

The first thing I noticed is the cleanliness of the sound. With this chip in the test amplifier, I heard known problems in a low-end portable source more clearly than with my reference for this test, the OPA134PA. The 627 also seems to do better on recordings with room ambience: it reveals details about the acoustic space that the OPA132/134 chips will hide, making them sound "flat" in comparison. But these two chips are more alike than different. Both have the characteristic laid-back and dark Burr-Brown sound, and both are very tolerant, stable chips.

The only remaining differences are that the OPA132/134 family will work well below 9V, whereas the 627's performance falls off a cliff below the clipping points I give above. There does seem to be a bit of extra low bass impactfulness with the 627. This seems less to be "extra power" than a removal of some heavier thumpiness in the 132/134 — the 627 seems to have a truer, more refined kind of bass.

In all my testing, I've been unable to hear a difference between the OPA627AP and the OPA627BP. The datasheet says that the differences between the grades are in the DC specs, so this is not surprising.

Bottom Line: The sonic differences between the OPA627/637 and the OPA132/134 are of the "last 5%" variety, rather than providing a dramatically different sound. If you like the Burr-Brown sound and can stand to pay 14× as much as for an OPA2134PA, a pair of OPA627APs is a reasonable investment. I see no reason to pay extra for the B grade in an audio application.

Have checked with my source. too bad he dun have opa2107..

For opa627ap, I received few pm stated they interested to get a set. I listed down here:
Interest list for 1 set of opa627 kit (consist of 2 pcs OPA627AP + 1 pc Browndog adapter):
1) RAV4 - 1 set
2) sakuragi01 - 1 set (confirmed)
3) yehlai - 1 set
Those on the list pls confirm your order. Minimum order is 6 pcs opa627ap to proceed. Shipping will be 2 weeks+ after I make payment to supplier.

I also got 4X OPA602, a free gift from my supplier. Any1 interested to try out?? All you need to pay both way shipping cost or can meet me at MMU Melaka.

Actually I wanna hear a comment from user who got both OPA627 and OPA2107, ppl mentioned OPA2107 sounds very close to the OPA627, just tad less clarity at highs and less dynamic.

Just now I chat with my friend, he could help me get OPA2107 at RM30 each, IMHO it's quite bang for the bucks, anyone wanna try

yeah the 2107 is definitely bang for buck and does sound very close to the 627.

though the 627 like others have said is more refined. can also hear more details clearly. though some might not even notice the difference.

imho, if ur not willing to pay the price of a 627, the 2107 is definitely a real good alternative. i absolutely fell in love with it the first time i tried it

GodLuv found it alrdy

Audiophiles sifus, OPA2107 need berapa biji?
OPA627 need two rite?

OPA2107 only need one as DAC opamp

Wah, rm30 is tempting.... but I've heard so much about Burr Brown so I think I'll still put my money there. I think all I need now is an opamp that covers the warm side. Waiting for ccschua's shootout to decide on what next.

yehlai, have you placed your Zero DAC order with GodLuv??? Hurry and join the gang!

Alrdy made payment. forgot to P.M bro GodLuv.
Now i send a P.M.

Cool!!! Now, the dreadful waiting..... before we can join the club.

Hi guys,

can i ask regarding this:
my amp max total output is 110W another amp is 140W. (have 2 amp)
is it have enough power/good enuogh, to paly the wharfy 9.1 which max out put is 100W for each speaker?

Thank you.

yehlai, are you going to blast at full 110W/140W?
are u serious?

im newbie, not sure amp power sufficient or not.. thts why i ask
amp total out put 140W another 110W.
speaker 100W X 2

Edit:
im not play rock metal la, i play orchestra, vocal, pop, instrument and mp3.

Bro, jazzy939: Tannoy MX1 u recommend me cant find new stock alrdy. Wht do u think about Wharfy?

[Sorry for Off topic TS]

That's just max rating. A small amp also can power the speaker.

Even 10W is more than enough for normal listening.

Ur wharfy 9.1 is a liitle hard to push. Both amp also can use, sound quality is the matter to decide which 1 to use.

wharfy 9.1 is a litle hard to push?
then u mean its not enough? not suitable?
Kindly advice.

I like to use this old school amp, my dad bought b4 i was 0 years old

SONY STR-11S (110W)


hope can pair with Zero Dac.
My planning:

PC > Sound card (do some EQ tuning) > Zero > Amp > Wharfy
or
DVD > Zero > Amp > Wharfy

Kindly advice me which setup is better. Thanks!

You need to understand the difference between PMPO and RMS power output, I believe your speaker 100W is just the PMPO output, if that is a true continuous 100W output, it can simply turn your glass window to vibration mode , and your neighbor will come and knock your door very soon.

What I mean is the sensitivity of the speaker

Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 has the sensitivity of 86dB/m which is on the lower side. So ur amp need more power (higher volume) to drive the speaker and to drive it nicely (sound quality). Some details may not come out if the amp does not have enough juice to push the speaker.

The higher the sensitivity, easier for the amp to drive the speaker.

100W is the max RMS of the speaker. I don't think anyone would use it to max.

DVD > Zero > Amp > Wharfy is a better choice.

PC generate too much noise and LOL u don't need EQ for Zero.

Will it demage my amp or speaker?
Or i will use the 140W amp.

Quote from another sifu:

No. Just because the speaker rated 100W, doesn't means it suck 100W from the amp every time u on the speaker. 100W is just the max wattage it can handle and that's when u turn ur amp to max volume. Normally the sound will distort before reaching it.

From the photo, ur amp is rated for 8ohm and above, so no problem pairing with Wharfedale which is also 8ohm.

If the amp's power rating is below that of the speaker, than ur speaker will not goes loud even u turn to max volume. That's all.

the meaning for 140w is u open max volume only running full 140w ....

normally just produce 20-30% depends the volume u open

To blast 140W is quite insane, unless u do it in open field.

RMS is generally used in HIFI quipment. Those marketing gimmick started to use PMPO on the PC speakers and car audio, and begun the RMS definition pollution. Well since 1974, FTC has begun to use RMS for audio equipment.

I begin to agree more of what Lawrence says about DY2000.

-------------
DY2000

Comment : These chips makes the sound more valve like than the tube sound ever did if that can possibly make any sense! Melodious, slightly laid back and warm yet it brings out every last bit of detail from a recording. Overall a very nice sound. A kind of hybrid valve and solid state mix which gives the best of both worlds. Nice smooth valve like mids and highs with lovely solid state bass oomph . This is the Op amp for those who prefer a valve like sound but would also like a solid state bottom end delivery. With this Op amp you can have your cake and eat it. Smooth as silk.

-------------

For DAC lovers, this is your good choice for warm vocal. Slight drawback is the hybrid feel.

So my 110W amp can play 100Wx2 speakers rite?
Just that some details might not come out, and cannot really try out the speaker potential. Cannot fully utilize the speaker or drive it nice..

Cant wait to play Zero, read so many good review regarding it.

DVD > Zero > Amp > Wharfy

Your above setup will be good enuf. If you like warm vocals, I dont think wharfy is doing you good. you may want to try the mids, like rogers, harbeth, atc scm, quad, KEF. all of them have LS 3/5a.

Dont you think Wharfy is abit bright. meaning if you listen to women voices, you can hear sibilance like sharp Sssss, Sssshhhh instead of smooth Ss, Sh.

Thank you for the insight,
i also read that, The 9.1 has several weaknesses. Their biggest weakness is an overly rich mid-bass. This gives a warm, pleasant tone, but it slows the speaker down and muddies the proceedings in the process. The 2nd weakness is resolution. By comparison to the rest you mention that I recognise, the 9.1 suffers from a lack of detail, definition and frequency extension.

others like rogers, quad, atc scm, harbeth price range is around RM4K- 12K. Really expensive for a begginer.

BTW, my amp back view is like this. Can pair with Zero rite?


Thanks.

yehlai, those ratings on speakers and amps are just the maximum specifications. A lot of NAD owners use their 30W or 35W amps to match with 80W or 100W speakers. In this case, it's impossible that the AMP will blow the speakers coz it's not powerful enough but you will "clip" Amp coz it's not powerful enough to drive the speaker if you turn the volume up to say maximum. On the other end, there are people with 200W Krell amps driving 100W speakers but in this case, volume at 12 o'clock is enough to make your neighbour call the police. Pushing the volume up will then potentially blow your speakers but I think your ears will give up first.

Anyway, music is to be enjoyed so one shouldn't bother too much with all the specs. So long as you look out for the all important matter of matching the correct amp with speaker to get the sound characteristic you like, you're good to go.

Connection Method:
CDP/DVD -> RCA Output -> AMP
CDP/DVD -> Coax/Fiber Digital Output -> ZERO -> RCA Output -> AMP

So your interface to the AMP is still the same. It's not a complicated item so try not to make it so.


WOW! That's a really old school Japanese amp! Honestly, old Sony are not very "musical". If you're looking for an upgrade, I just saw someone selling a 2nd hand Arcam Alpha3, which would make a huge difference to your system. http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/726414

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Added on June 27, 2008, 1:24 pm
Great! So when will there be a bulk for DY2000?

Woo... LS3/5a. very expensive now days, saw someone selling at hifi4sale more than 6K now, compared the spendor LS3/5A that I formerly owned only RM1350 during 1989 .

wht is LS3/5a? googled, but too many info came out.
How bout Tannoy Mercury F1 Custom, Mordaunt-Short 902 and Monitor Audio Bronze BR2?
they have 5 stars too. anny of those is LS3/5a?
Thanks.

Choose your speaker carefully. It is your best investment.

LS 3/5a are old school speakers meant for BBC. They are collection items. so much so, some kept the 3/5a speakers in rack for display only.

I have heard BR2 pair with soundstage (mullard tubes) and it was good match. You can also try the Menthor tube amp currently on sale at hifi4sale blog.




sayang. now it is vintage. but I think SCM7 is still quite cheap. always want to grab then gone.

The DY2000 bulk is no more, because not many DAC HIFIler. many like headamp. You may pm me for the address.

LS3/5A is a speaker designed by BBC for broadcast use (also called Monitor speakers). BBC has strict control over the design so that they all sound similar. Rogers, Harbeth, KEF are the few who took the license to manufacture them under their own brand but still sounds very much like how BBC designed them to sound like.

Broadcast speakers are best for vocals and that's what LS3/5A are known for. Forget about trying to play rock or jazz on them. Those few hundred bucks speakers will sound better but if you mainly listen to vocals, even those speakers costing more than 10k won't sound better.

In my life time, I've only listened to the Harbeth LS3/5A once. It's like the singer was there in front of us. It was about 15 years ago and it was close to 3k back then. Now, I'm sure they're 6-8k. Don't forget, you will need to pair them with a suitable amp too.

Try KT 88. I will bring in 6V6, and see how sweet and warm it would be (though I know 6V6 is weak to drive demanding load)

Now my Hifi day is over now, I wld be happy if can spent 2 hrs every weekend with my Zero + 627.

previously i tested 3 speaker 9.1 , MS 902i and carnival 2 ,

Wharfedale 9.1 wut i know abit power hungry ,sound warm if u have enuf power to push this baby sound not bad really good for vocal no shh shh shh sound hahaha actually i really like this baby but my amp not enuf to push make vocal abit blur.

MS902i - sound dynamic and tweeter sound harsh , good resolution , nice detail and easy to push but vocal thin.

MS Carnival 2 what i using now - sound between of this 2 not bright not warm and easy to push nothing impress hahaha


LS 3/5A i audit before it really nice ... this really power hungry bcoz running on 11ohm minimum some version with 15ohm and 16ohm also got if i not mistaken ....

the mid and tweeter is made by KEF and just the branding is different all the speaker they send back to BBC to inspection. currently KEF already stop production of this speaker and now the lastest version is STERLING and they ask scans speak to make the tweeter follow the original spec and the mid from SEAS ... and BBC say is get abt 95%
similar to the old LS 3/5A

http://www.stirlingbroadcast.net/